What Would It Take for You to Stop Watching the English Premier League?

The 'Prem 2' plan would probably be the line in the sand for me. I already find the Premiership somewhat artifical and business like. It may be the 'best' league right now, but its sure as hell not the most entertaining. I think the end of relegation/promotion is the way things are heading (in the long run I mean, not straight away). If that happens, and if we get the franchise, US style league, then thats me done.

Last season was my line in the sand. Christ, what a boring league.

I suggest it be a good idea of the higher powers here at the offside do an IP check on some of the posters here, I've a inkling that some are doubling up by posting after different names.

Well it would be good if you stopped reading,Jean Michele. The Premier League has come up with stupid plan after stupid plan. I cant wait for the day when all this comes back to bite the Bullcrap Leagues a**.

Appears to me that Daryl here is trying (and failing miserably) to equate ridiculous fantasy proposals such as the 39th game, the BPL2 and Celtic joining the BPL to the very real reality of copyright law. Lack of logical argument even in such "theoretical" talk is laughable at best.

I don't care that bloggers can't publish fixtures, I don't go to blogs to see who my club plays next. I read them for their opinions and honestly, this 'anti-English' campaign has gone from amusing to whining and is awfully close to having me stop reading it.

This whole arguement makes me go "bleh....".

I live in a country where in order to get live European football matches, I have to pay upwards of $80 per month. As such I can't reason that amount of money from my wife to watch footie. So where do I get my football from, illegal downloads and YouTube highlights. But now I can't EPL highlights, though I can watch La Liga highlights with ease. So that leaves me spending my dollars buying Valencian and Spanish kits, over the Fulham kits, whom i've supported my whole life. Accessiblity proves to be a winner here, and now I have handed over thousands of dollars purely due to easy access over the net.

To those arguing that seeing as FD Co have the IP rights to the EPL they dhould excercise them. I think we all agree they have the right to, but really should they? Football was, and should've stayed, exisiting as a community function. it allowed groups of people to get together, and support an entity, something we needed since the Indstrial revolution gave us so much extra time.

Now it seems instead of being community based, football clubs in Leagues are profit based. They turned into corporations whose only goal is profit. They've turned into any other corporation. Now, generally speaking, I have nil against corp's seeking profit (unless it is to the detriment of their sustainability or the envronment). But to take something out of public like this and sell it for everything it is worth. Stick it. FD co and the FA need a lesson in corporate social responsibility.

I currently have patents pending for two devices and own the rights to a few other road safety related technologies. I am patenting the devices because I believe it is the best way to get them made and save lives while still getting the financial recognition I deserve. However I do not enforce my rights on my publicised technologies because I believe it to be my social responsibility. t is much more important that they be implemented at low low cost quickly and they save lives and money, than I make a single cent from them.

When clubs such as Man City are able to spend more than $100 million on flashy Brazilians, then football has in effect died.

Daryl

The answer is a very easy one; it is their right to do so. I don't think anyone would disagree that their decision might be short-sighted in some areas but it does not change the basic facts that they own the trademarks.

Clubs have been hand their hand dealt to them through the sales of media rights. You cannot sell your rights for large sums and on the opposite hand not police it. The next phase of that action is coming with a much bigger sweep of illegal streams in mind.

I'm not a fan of Football in England so the more relevant question would be "what would it take me to watch the 'EPL'" -

Integrity and respect for local fans, players and the end to foreign ownership. Nothing I expect ever to happen in a league where the connection to the community seems lost to me with many (not all) clubs.

However as it comes to copyright infringement I work in design and despise those who steal trademarks/copyrights and other intellectual property. Design your own but don't steal it.

cc,

Summarizing an argument into general terms of black and white suggests that you don't understand the finer points of the specific argument.

The question is: should Football Data Co be making copyrighting claims on fixture lists when fanzine, blogs etc publish them?

And while there's an obvious argument for copyrighting club crests (fake merchandise etcetera) should that copyright then be used to prevent blogs from using it to identify those clubs?

To summarize, it is fine for a small business to use a larger businesses property to attract clients but the owner of trademarks should consider their investments as public domain. Equally Football isn't a business and we should naturally be able to make use of others work.

: )

tov, I needed a good laugh

Daryl, thanks for the two links. It did crossed my mind on how the likes of Cardiff, Swansea are in the Championship when those two clubs come from Wales themselves. I am not so sure about Celtic and Rangers joining the Premier League though.

'I agree though, the promotion/relegation system must be kept.'
Same here.

It is tough for me to say what will make me stop watching the Premier League altogether. That was what I grew up with, having a father who is a football fan and he watches the EPL. When the EPL was formed from the old Division One, I was still in kindergarten. The EPL is already quite popular here in my country Singapore (in a way it has to do with the British colonial legacy and so we are in a way always wanting to find out what is happening in England), and already Liverpool had confirmed that they will come here in July. Traditionally there are many who call themselves Liverpool fans here (not me, given I support Manchester United) and so I can imagine how they will react of the news. The fanbase is there since the days of Liverpool's dominance in the 70s.

Anyhow during the whole Kaka-to-Manchester City saga, that was the first real time I actually asked myself should I stop watching the Premier League altogether. I was also like thinking then, I do also watch the Bundesliga given it is also on here. It is the other league I watch apart from the EPL.

But time and again the EPL has thrown up matches like the 4-4 draw between Liverpool and Arsenal... I will always remember since my childhood, how my father will wake up in the middle of the night just to watch his team which he supported since as a teenager (this was back in the days when Liverpool was dominanting in English football) in Manchester United in action. EPL or the Champions League, it is the same thing. He was there when Man Utd once got relegated, he was also there when they won the Treble in the 1998/99 season. He always light up if I mention the 1999 Champions League final against Bayern Munich! :) If anyone ask me what is a true football fan, I can point to my father as one example. One who sticks to his/her team in good times and the bad, no matter what.

Just to clarify I'm not a lawyer yet...but I can think like one.
No its not ruining football at all! Thats the point! None of this changes the game! Its annoying for blogs, but in the long run nothing is changed, its still Joga Bonito.

So, let me get this straight.

If the offside uses the images of the club's crests next to the team's name, it somehow destroys the sport of football?

The only thing that's killing football is the dominance of the clubs by rich schmucks who buy a football team for a trophy and to even make a little money.

Football is for the people in the stands, the people who wake up in the wee hours of the morning to catch their team's games, not for owners.

Like it or not, it is a business. That's the world. I love soccer and I get all of my footie news from blogs- they're essential to my soccer experience. So I wish they would expand their minds and allow more free use of their logos, but not having the fixture lists or the crests doesn't change how much I visit the offside.

@mikeK- I love the passion, but Celtic have rights to that seal, just like Guinness has the rights to that left-facing harp, just like Benz has the rights to that not-quite peace sign.

BMatthews - you know this is an absolute strict legal matter that has massive implications. I'm confident from your professional and business presentations you could shed more light on copyright theft.

Mike K - you're naive if you don't think this is a business decision but like others who take intellectual property theft lightly, in the end you'll lose out because it'll harm the game you apparently love. As far as your first point, brilliant suggestion because I've wasted enough time on this.

j,

Are you really comparing the Premier League's profits with The Offside selling some advertising space?

And if you think that charging money for football fans to print fixture lists is fair just because it's capitalism then you're more a businessman than a football fan.

Half of marrages here in the US end in divorce. Just Saying...

Apparently, I should proofread posts - my apologies.

Also, a point people might raise is that the teams aren't being good to their supporters, with ridiculous ticket prices and a new kit every half an hour, which I can't argue against.. However, the way I see it is, truly supporting a football team is like a marriage. You're with them through thick and thin, through sickness (or injuries), through success and failure, till death (your own in this case) do you part.

The door is up in the top right corner, J. You can leave any time.

Badges don't belong to the owners of the team. They're not just pictures. They're symbolic, they represent the heart and soul of the local community, or of those who cry when the team gets relegated and parties for days when the team gets promoted.

Football for the people, nicht corporates.

One can make a great argument that the Celtic front office does not "own" the rights to the badge from a moral standpoint. A green 4 leaf clover is a symbol widely used in Celtic (the ethnicity) art and folk lure.

These teams weren't founded on this principles of profit over all else. Certainly, they wouldn't block fan sites from using the team's badge to promote and bring news to fans, would they?

For me, it's not just about loving football and the talent on the pitch - it's the love I have for my team. I don't care if they play in the Prem, Premier League Two, the Conference or Mars, I'll be there every step of the way, as I have been for many, many years.
I think it's a shame was is happening in modern football, but for me it is all about my team - and no amoung of ridiculous institutional changes could make me give it up.

I don't think this is in anyway setting up the PL for a fall- this is a strict legal matter. We can appreciate teams like Hull that value the blogosphere, but I think its tough to falt teams for protecting their images. There is no way for a big club to keep tabs on all the various fan sites which COULD BE making money off of their images (shirts/advertising). I LOVE this website, I frequent probably too many blogs on it, but even I can't be upset about this.


maybe I'm just thinking like a future IP lawyer...oh yeahhhh thats probably it.

Agree with Daryl. It goes back to how you want to treat your fans, and whether or not you value the things they offer you which can't be quantified by dollar signs. (Or pound signs.)

Again, MLS is the antithesis of the EPL here . MLS values its fans. It wants and needs the publicity that can be offered by these fans. So even though MLS technically owns the copyright to things like the fixture list and the images that find their way to YouTube, it understands that allowing bloggers and fans to use them creates a win-win situation.

EPL views the internet and bloggers as the enemy because they're afraid it might cost them a few pennies in the short run, and they love their pennies. Incredibly short-sighted.

And what's funny is that from a business standpoint, I have a hard time seeing how things like allowing fan videos on YouTube costs them a cent. Are SkySports or other TV broadcasters really going to lower their bid for broadcast rights because more people are watching their product? Why not insert a short commercial and post it yourself and allow it to be used and seen?

Which league do you think will be developing loyal 21st century fans in the long run? EPL is setting themselves up for a big fall. It won't happen soon, but it will happen.

No, it is very open and shut because theft of intellectual property has devastating financial impact on businesses and offenders should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The use a trademarked / copyrighted property should be only with the strict permission of the owner and countless web-sites have used trademarks for their business without approval to assist revenue generation. This doesn't of-course include the recommendation of illegal streams that further complicates the issue and effectively forces the crackdown.

Whether it is an intelligent business marketing decision or not, is not the decision of the other parties. As far as their business decisions I didn't realize capitalism had died but I suspect border space is now free on the website as you no longer wish to "squeeze as much money as possible".

Laurie,

"(A good start would be to stop broadcasting only the English clubs in Champions League.)"

It's a bit difficult when there's only English sides in it!

j,

It's not as simple as being either for or against copyright law in general. It's about the application of that copyright law.

The fixture list and the club crest cases are examples of copyright law being used with zero common sense in order to squeeze as much money as possible out of something.

For the Welsh teams I would think they're part of the English structure because of the era they were created in and the perspective of Wales and possibly the number of teams and cities? Like if there aren't that many viable teams then why not be included in the larger English league? Otherwise they might not even have enough reasonable teams to do anything at all. I would guess this and politics is related to why they're in the English structure.

As for the main article. Total crap. Doesn't make any sense at all and I completely agree that then where do we draw the line. Is it ok then to import teams from all across Europe, nay, the WORLD? Insane.

If they'd like to pursue this course change the champions league structure/format instead and have it be more like a league and less like a tournament. Not sure HOW exactly they'd do that but really I think thats the better solution than just snatching up teams from their own leagues and importing them to the EPL.

Also the Toronto being in MLS thing, yeah it would be insane to see a Mexican team and they'd never allow that to happen anyway. Think of it like the NHL. One, its called the NHL(National Hockey League). Who is it national for? The US somehow despite the number of Canadian teams/players.

But its the same situation, you put these countries together because apart, they'd be less interesting and the sport wouldn't be as strong, together theres a huge base of fans/players. Doing this with just the top two Scottish clubs though? Thats just ridiculous. If they like the idea of a British league, make one, but each country does need their own league I think, more or less (sorry Wales).

While slightly off-topic, I just have to ask how can anyone who writes or creates original content be upset with upholding of copyright laws? Instead of circumventing laws and promoting the theft on intellectual property you should be upholding it.

@ Ibracadabra-

I love football too. Of course I do, otherwise why would I be here? However, just because the other leagues aren't as "good" (read: wealthy) as the premier league doesn't make them less entertaining to watch.

On the contrary, if you put a EPL and La Liga game side by side, I'd watch the La Liga game 9 times out of 10.

So, why not protest against corporations ruining football while watching football? There's just as much, if not more, entertainment in watching the little guys play in the lower divisions of the world. Even if they don't have Ronaldo or Rooney, they instead have players who actually care about the team and what the team represents, not money. Personally, I love rooting for my tiny little club tucked away in the "poor" area of Hamburg. It lets me enjoy football without selling my soul to AIG.

Forza St Pauli

it's kind of similar to toronto fc being in the mls, whereas the thought of a major mexican team coming into the mls would be ludicrous

plus, if i'm not mistaken the welsh league is relatively young. it did not have a fully national league until 1992, whereas the SPL is one of the oldest in the world.

Here are the best links I've found for answering the "Why are Welsh teams Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport, Merthyr Tydfil, and Colwyn Bay playing in the English Football League?" question:

http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/M...
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/qu...

(that second one's my favourite because the original questions ends with "Please don't answer with one word just to increase your ratings it's very annoying" and the top rated answer is "money.")

One of the interesting things I learned is that The Football League is really just called "The Football League" and not "The English Football League" (just as it's not really called the "English" Premier League either.)

Basically, the bigger Welsh teams were invited join The Football League in the early days, and so they did.

The big difference between Swansea, Cardiff etc joining the Football League back then and Celtic, Rangers joining the Premier League now is that (as far as I can tell) the Welsh teams weren't already established in the Welsh league, whereas Celtic and Rangers have years of history in the Scottish league.

Well, as long as its on the tv with the same amount of talent they have right now, i'll keep watching it, especially if they keep giving us games like yesterday's Liverpool/Arsenal match...

and i'm not stubborn enough to stop watching just because there's a rule change or two... however, if they don't stop trying to end the internet (because we all know that if they can just find a magical "off" button for the internet, they'd give anything to flick it like a giant light switch), then it could cause enough of other people to just get sick of it and stick to leagues like the MLS where they WANT people watching the game wherever they are....

and also, i don't have GolTV anymore (go to hell, dish network), so all i CAN watch on tv is the premier league and the Serie A on FSC... and if the premier league went away and was replaced by any other talented league, i really wouldn't mind, because i would much rather watch Genoa-Catania matches as opposed to Middlesbrough-Hull matches

I agree with Ibra- its all about talent and if you really love to watch the game or your team then really...you're stuck.

I agree though, the promotion/relegation system must be kept.

I also don't see any way that SPL teams join the EPL.

I'm with Ibracadabra on this. I'm as anti-Capitalist as Americans come, but damn I don't think I could stop watching football.

I'll watch it, because the quality is good. But like Laurie, I won't watch it as often, and I won't buy their swag. But not supporting any one English team, I probably wouldn't anyway, so I'm not going to cost them a penny.

Also, the "copyright gestapo" thing is HUGE for me. After witnessing firsthand how they treat fans who love their teams, I will never, ever in my life purchase anything related to the Premier League that's not a bootleg copy -- with all profits going to some random ebay seller from Malaysia.

As opposed to "unserious googling."

That's a great point Matt. I have no idea how that happened, but am about to go and do some serious Googling.

What about Swansea, Cardiff, etc?

I don't know about you guys, but I won't ever stop watching as long as their is talent on the pitch.

The game has already been corrupted in many ways due to money - for most not on the pitch it is a business after all - but as long as I live and as long as I physically can't perform some of the things that can be performed at Old Trafford, Anfield, or Stamford Bridge - I will watch.

It brings me joy. I love futbol. I can vent or "protest" all I want at the big business and foreign wealth, etc. ruining the sport - but at the end of the day, I am human and I have a flaw - I love football.

We all have flaws. Some of us, like Phil Gartside - have "crazy proposal" flaws. Others, like me, have, "I won't ever stop watching footie" flaws.

go Benayoun.

I don't watch a lot of Premier League football to begin with. The haves and have-nots aspect is so amplified there that even though I love some of the players on most of the bigger clubs, I can't make myself a fan of the clubs themselves.

What it will take for the majority of non-English fans to stop watching will be the realization by TV broadcasters that the football is actually better and more exciting elsewhere. (A good start would be to stop broadcasting only the English clubs in Champions League.)

I've already stopped watching... To me, the league holds little meaning. Either watch one group of overpaid, primadonna stars or another group of maybe a little less overpaid primadonna stars.

To me, it's not a football contest, it's a contest to see who can spend more money for the big stars.