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	<title>Comments on: C-Ron Saga Giving Fergie a Taste of His Own Medicine</title>
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		<title>By: Ak</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131049</link>
		<dc:creator>Ak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131049</guid>
		<description>A: Milan were brilliant in that game...but, I wouldn&#039;t call it a complete performance: Ferdinand was injured and it was Vidic&#039;s first game back from an injury. Again, that&#039;s the difference between a team who were fighting hard on four fronts, and one who concentrated on just one: one team was tired and had a ton of injuries, and the other were still in peak health. But, regardless, it _was_ a great Milan performance.

Before our B-team outclassed Arsenal&#039;s B-team in the FA cup, I would have agreed with you about Arsenal playing the best football in Europe, and I may still do so now. Well, so you never said, &quot;wow,&quot; of their performances; I however was mightily impressed with the way we beat Arsenal 2-1 at home, and were the better team away (but &quot;only&quot; got a draw); how we beat Chelsea 2-0 at home, but lost to a hand-ball-assisted away loss when we played the better football; how we trounced Liverpool (as usual!); how we beat Roma with one of the best technical performances I&#039;ve ever seen from a Utd team, and without ever really breaking a sweat (a Roma team that I considered the best non-English team last year); how we were able to play catenaccio against Barca (something I&#039;ve never seen us be able to do before); how we had the strongest attack of any team in Europe, supplemented with the strongest defense of any team in Europe. Of course there were some rough moments: the defeat of Lyon was hardly magnificent, playing catenaccio against Barca robbed us of a fantastic game, and plenty of others that I&#039;ve forgotten. But I think you&#039;re wrong to think this was not a very good side. Technically very strong, excellent in attack, young, and able to beat teams when not playing well. I can tell you without bias that compared to the other Utd sides, last year&#039;s performances were up there with the &#039;99 team; and if that team goes on to beat most of the top sides in Europe (including the English ones) while setting a record or two, then maybe it is not you&#039;re eyes that are deceiving you, but you&#039;re prejudices. It&#039;s too early to call this a &quot;great&quot; team, but quite justifiable (I reckon) in calling it a very good one.

As to the issue at hand, we Utd supporters rightly demand loyalty from CR7: when the rest of the country booed CR7 (and burnt effigies of Beckham before that), it was us supporters that stuck by them. Never once was a boo or hiss directed at them within Old Trafford. Never. Can SAF demand the same? Perhaps, and perhaps not. I will laugh at him demanding loyalty from, say, Stam after the way he treated him; but what ill has he done to CR7? Then again, if you do bad things what else can you expect?

Maybe SAF deserves what is coming to him (although, to be fair, this would not nearly be enough!) But, it&#039;s not wise to be pouring scorn when you look through tinted eyes. There are more important things in life than to stir up grievances of the past. Commiserations on the loss to Spain. Forget about it. I would give you another quote about life, but nobody ever listens...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A: Milan were brilliant in that game&#8230;but, I wouldn&#8217;t call it a complete performance: Ferdinand was injured and it was Vidic&#8217;s first game back from an injury. Again, that&#8217;s the difference between a team who were fighting hard on four fronts, and one who concentrated on just one: one team was tired and had a ton of injuries, and the other were still in peak health. But, regardless, it _was_ a great Milan performance.</p>
<p>Before our B-team outclassed Arsenal&#8217;s B-team in the FA cup, I would have agreed with you about Arsenal playing the best football in Europe, and I may still do so now. Well, so you never said, &#8220;wow,&#8221; of their performances; I however was mightily impressed with the way we beat Arsenal 2-1 at home, and were the better team away (but &#8220;only&#8221; got a draw); how we beat Chelsea 2-0 at home, but lost to a hand-ball-assisted away loss when we played the better football; how we trounced Liverpool (as usual!); how we beat Roma with one of the best technical performances I&#8217;ve ever seen from a Utd team, and without ever really breaking a sweat (a Roma team that I considered the best non-English team last year); how we were able to play catenaccio against Barca (something I&#8217;ve never seen us be able to do before); how we had the strongest attack of any team in Europe, supplemented with the strongest defense of any team in Europe. Of course there were some rough moments: the defeat of Lyon was hardly magnificent, playing catenaccio against Barca robbed us of a fantastic game, and plenty of others that I&#8217;ve forgotten. But I think you&#8217;re wrong to think this was not a very good side. Technically very strong, excellent in attack, young, and able to beat teams when not playing well. I can tell you without bias that compared to the other Utd sides, last year&#8217;s performances were up there with the &#8216;99 team; and if that team goes on to beat most of the top sides in Europe (including the English ones) while setting a record or two, then maybe it is not you&#8217;re eyes that are deceiving you, but you&#8217;re prejudices. It&#8217;s too early to call this a &#8220;great&#8221; team, but quite justifiable (I reckon) in calling it a very good one.</p>
<p>As to the issue at hand, we Utd supporters rightly demand loyalty from CR7: when the rest of the country booed CR7 (and burnt effigies of Beckham before that), it was us supporters that stuck by them. Never once was a boo or hiss directed at them within Old Trafford. Never. Can SAF demand the same? Perhaps, and perhaps not. I will laugh at him demanding loyalty from, say, Stam after the way he treated him; but what ill has he done to CR7? Then again, if you do bad things what else can you expect?</p>
<p>Maybe SAF deserves what is coming to him (although, to be fair, this would not nearly be enough!) But, it&#8217;s not wise to be pouring scorn when you look through tinted eyes. There are more important things in life than to stir up grievances of the past. Commiserations on the loss to Spain. Forget about it. I would give you another quote about life, but nobody ever listens&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131043</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And Ak, you of all people should recognise that Milan were superb in the CL in 07 and their performance against your boys was perhaps the most complete footballing performance to topple a team who thinks rather highly of themselves in this decade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Ak, you of all people should recognise that Milan were superb in the CL in 07 and their performance against your boys was perhaps the most complete footballing performance to topple a team who thinks rather highly of themselves in this decade.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131042</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131042</guid>
		<description>My point was not that Man Utd is worse than other big clubs with treatment of players, but rather that Mr Fergie and the club should be the last people to talk up loyalty. Man Utd and the British football media created the ego-maniac called Cristiano Ronaldo, their fans demonised him after the World Cup and given the way they treated some of their stars in the past and the opportunity of Real, can anyone really blame CR for wanting out?

And as to how good this Man Utd team is, I have not watched a match of theirs this season where I thought &quot;wow!&quot;. Their a bit of a long ball team against good opposition, which was evident very early on in the season e.g. vs Arsenal, and that is just not my cup of tea. I did however see them outclassed by Chelsea in the league, play Scottish catenaccio to make it into the final where they were the worse team and got pretty luck to get the win. For me, Arsenal played the best football in Europe this season (and I&#039;m not saying that because they beat Milan).

They may be better than Real this year or last three, and they maybe more successful than Real over the last three or four too, but not by much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point was not that Man Utd is worse than other big clubs with treatment of players, but rather that Mr Fergie and the club should be the last people to talk up loyalty. Man Utd and the British football media created the ego-maniac called Cristiano Ronaldo, their fans demonised him after the World Cup and given the way they treated some of their stars in the past and the opportunity of Real, can anyone really blame CR for wanting out?</p>
<p>And as to how good this Man Utd team is, I have not watched a match of theirs this season where I thought &#8220;wow!&#8221;. Their a bit of a long ball team against good opposition, which was evident very early on in the season e.g. vs Arsenal, and that is just not my cup of tea. I did however see them outclassed by Chelsea in the league, play Scottish catenaccio to make it into the final where they were the worse team and got pretty luck to get the win. For me, Arsenal played the best football in Europe this season (and I&#8217;m not saying that because they beat Milan).</p>
<p>They may be better than Real this year or last three, and they maybe more successful than Real over the last three or four too, but not by much.</p>
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		<title>By: Ak</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131040</link>
		<dc:creator>Ak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131040</guid>
		<description>A: if Utd &quot;fluked&quot; this year&#039;s CL, then what would you call Milan the year before only playing a dozen or so competitive games and using the league as an extended warm-up session? Or what would you call Barca&#039;s performance in the final the year before that? Man Utd were arguably the best team in Europe this year; regardless of an underwhelming performance or two. The same could be said in &#039;99. Was 3-2 at the delle Alpi a fluke? Or 3-3 at Camp Nou (with a few Barca dives in the penalty box)? The final against Bayern was a poor game (you try playing without Keane and Scholes in the middle -- two players who could have walked, in my own opinion, into any team in the world at the time). The fact is that EVERY team &quot;flukes&quot; the CL.

Yes, Real have more trophies; but I&#039;d wager Utd would have had a lot more if it wasn&#039;t for Munich (the team that lost to Real in &#039;57 had an average age of about 22 and were already regarded as &quot;great&quot; -- you try to find a team that young in the fifties that had that much talent). Torino FC never recovered from the Superga disaster; it&#039;s a credit to Utd that they somewhat did.

But, you are right: for a long time Utd were not a good enough club to attract top players. However, you&#039;d be foolish to think that it was money in the nineties that gave Utd (or any other premiership club) an advantage: it was only by the end of that decade that the top clubs could reach financial equality with the Juves and Milans of Europe. And, you&#039;d be idiotic to think that Spanish and Italian clubs were any different when they were the best in the world: Utd simply could not compete with the wages that Italian clubs could offer in the nineties, and to a lesser extent the top Spanish clubs at the turn of the decade. Yes, Real&#039;s (and Barca&#039;s and Milan&#039;s) reputations are bigger than Utd&#039;s in South American and Mediterranean countries (and maybe others too), and that is why CR7 wants to go to Real; but what do you reckon Utd&#039;s reputation is in Asia, and to a lesser extent America? Such countries provide few top-class players; but plenty of opportunity. United are a bigger club than Real in many ways, and in others less so; but I like to think that Utd have been a better club than Real for a fair few years now on where it is all said and done: the pitch.

A: hate us, the Utd supporters; we are arrogant at times, because it is hard to appreciate the beast that is before you when you can only see it&#039;s tail (ignore 90% of the so-called &quot;fans&quot;: they are new to the sport and ignorant). But, don&#039;t blast the club. Yes, we perhaps could have treated Becks and Stam and V-man with more loyalty (I could argue against this, but I won&#039;t for now): how is your, or any other, club much different? I could just as easily hate Italian clubs for their &quot;history of cheating&quot;; or Real for having bought a team that they couldn&#039;t afford and then having the Spanish government bail them out. Or either countries&#039; teams for &quot;stealing&quot; South American youngsters from their respective clubs for decades akin to the accusation that Platini and co. make against premiership clubs. Life&#039;s too short.

Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus:

Is the cucumber bitter? Then throw it away. Is a thorn bush in your way? Then go around it. That is enough; do not add, &quot;Why do such things exist in the world?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A: if Utd &#8220;fluked&#8221; this year&#8217;s CL, then what would you call Milan the year before only playing a dozen or so competitive games and using the league as an extended warm-up session? Or what would you call Barca&#8217;s performance in the final the year before that? Man Utd were arguably the best team in Europe this year; regardless of an underwhelming performance or two. The same could be said in &#8216;99. Was 3-2 at the delle Alpi a fluke? Or 3-3 at Camp Nou (with a few Barca dives in the penalty box)? The final against Bayern was a poor game (you try playing without Keane and Scholes in the middle &#8212; two players who could have walked, in my own opinion, into any team in the world at the time). The fact is that EVERY team &#8220;flukes&#8221; the CL.</p>
<p>Yes, Real have more trophies; but I&#8217;d wager Utd would have had a lot more if it wasn&#8217;t for Munich (the team that lost to Real in &#8216;57 had an average age of about 22 and were already regarded as &#8220;great&#8221; &#8212; you try to find a team that young in the fifties that had that much talent). Torino FC never recovered from the Superga disaster; it&#8217;s a credit to Utd that they somewhat did.</p>
<p>But, you are right: for a long time Utd were not a good enough club to attract top players. However, you&#8217;d be foolish to think that it was money in the nineties that gave Utd (or any other premiership club) an advantage: it was only by the end of that decade that the top clubs could reach financial equality with the Juves and Milans of Europe. And, you&#8217;d be idiotic to think that Spanish and Italian clubs were any different when they were the best in the world: Utd simply could not compete with the wages that Italian clubs could offer in the nineties, and to a lesser extent the top Spanish clubs at the turn of the decade. Yes, Real&#8217;s (and Barca&#8217;s and Milan&#8217;s) reputations are bigger than Utd&#8217;s in South American and Mediterranean countries (and maybe others too), and that is why CR7 wants to go to Real; but what do you reckon Utd&#8217;s reputation is in Asia, and to a lesser extent America? Such countries provide few top-class players; but plenty of opportunity. United are a bigger club than Real in many ways, and in others less so; but I like to think that Utd have been a better club than Real for a fair few years now on where it is all said and done: the pitch.</p>
<p>A: hate us, the Utd supporters; we are arrogant at times, because it is hard to appreciate the beast that is before you when you can only see it&#8217;s tail (ignore 90% of the so-called &#8220;fans&#8221;: they are new to the sport and ignorant). But, don&#8217;t blast the club. Yes, we perhaps could have treated Becks and Stam and V-man with more loyalty (I could argue against this, but I won&#8217;t for now): how is your, or any other, club much different? I could just as easily hate Italian clubs for their &#8220;history of cheating&#8221;; or Real for having bought a team that they couldn&#8217;t afford and then having the Spanish government bail them out. Or either countries&#8217; teams for &#8220;stealing&#8221; South American youngsters from their respective clubs for decades akin to the accusation that Platini and co. make against premiership clubs. Life&#8217;s too short.</p>
<p>Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus:</p>
<p>Is the cucumber bitter? Then throw it away. Is a thorn bush in your way? Then go around it. That is enough; do not add, &#8220;Why do such things exist in the world?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131039</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>But the &#039;standard&#039; that was brought up by the topic was that of &#039;pecking orders&#039; in European football and by that standard, all empirical data points to the fact that Real Madrid are above Man Utd, even now as much as in the past.

You think Man Utd can coax Kaka from AC Milan? I&#039;ll bet on that not happening but I&#039;m very nervous that Real Madrid might.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the &#8217;standard&#8217; that was brought up by the topic was that of &#8216;pecking orders&#8217; in European football and by that standard, all empirical data points to the fact that Real Madrid are above Man Utd, even now as much as in the past.</p>
<p>You think Man Utd can coax Kaka from AC Milan? I&#8217;ll bet on that not happening but I&#8217;m very nervous that Real Madrid might.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131038</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 22:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131038</guid>
		<description>Yes, precisely, by the standard of the exposure given to Man Utd by Murdoch and the rest of the world media, and the resulting haul of new supporters, revenue streams, and trophies. Also by the standard of the fact that at the moment Man Utd are not just a better team than Real Madrid, but a significantly better team, as the Champions League results demonstrated. I don&#039;t say this as anything resembling a Man Utd supporter. But I&#039;m absolutely sure that this modern, trashy, money-soaked scale of greatness counts at least as much with Ronaldo as glories accrued during the Franco era.

You&#039;re right that Man Utd would give him a new contract. But by the same modern, trashy, money-soaked standard, a massive move to Madrid would do more for his sense of himself than a quiet raise at his old club. He could be the player who smashed the transfer fee record! &lt;em&gt;Of course&lt;/em&gt; Real Madrid&#039;s history plays a significant role in creating this context; my point is just that Ronaldo&#039;s point of contact with it is almost certainly not a romantic identification with the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, precisely, by the standard of the exposure given to Man Utd by Murdoch and the rest of the world media, and the resulting haul of new supporters, revenue streams, and trophies. Also by the standard of the fact that at the moment Man Utd are not just a better team than Real Madrid, but a significantly better team, as the Champions League results demonstrated. I don&#8217;t say this as anything resembling a Man Utd supporter. But I&#8217;m absolutely sure that this modern, trashy, money-soaked scale of greatness counts at least as much with Ronaldo as glories accrued during the Franco era.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that Man Utd would give him a new contract. But by the same modern, trashy, money-soaked standard, a massive move to Madrid would do more for his sense of himself than a quiet raise at his old club. He could be the player who smashed the transfer fee record! <em>Of course</em> Real Madrid&#8217;s history plays a significant role in creating this context; my point is just that Ronaldo&#8217;s point of contact with it is almost certainly not a romantic identification with the past.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131037</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131037</guid>
		<description>By what standards is Man Utd a bigger club than Real Madrid at this moment? If you mean it&#039;s by the exposure given to them by Mr Murdoch, that is self evident. 

Money is not the issue. Man Utd would draw him up a new contract in a flash. And of course it&#039;s an ego thing. This whole business of status of clubs is about egos. But there&#039;s a reason why Real Madrid in particular is the destination. This is the club of Di Stefano, astronomical transfer fees and Galacticos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By what standards is Man Utd a bigger club than Real Madrid at this moment? If you mean it&#8217;s by the exposure given to them by Mr Murdoch, that is self evident. </p>
<p>Money is not the issue. Man Utd would draw him up a new contract in a flash. And of course it&#8217;s an ego thing. This whole business of status of clubs is about egos. But there&#8217;s a reason why Real Madrid in particular is the destination. This is the club of Di Stefano, astronomical transfer fees and Galacticos.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131035</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131035</guid>
		<description>A --- You have a point about the historical success of the two clubs, but it borders on the incredible to suggest that what&#039;s motivating Ronaldo now is a romantic childhood dream to play for Real Madrid.

I think Ronaldo sees himself as bigger than either club. Moving to Madrid would be a massive triumph for his ego, since it would demonstrate that what he wants transcends what his employers want, as well as bringing him more money, proving that he isn&#039;t beholden to Ferguson for his greatness, and potentially shifting the balance of power in European football all by himself (since whatever you say about the past, Man Utd are clearly a bigger club globally &lt;em&gt;right now&lt;/em&gt;, in large part because of Ronaldo himself).

That&#039;s what&#039;s motivating him, not the desire to wear the same shirt as di Stefano.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A &#8212; You have a point about the historical success of the two clubs, but it borders on the incredible to suggest that what&#8217;s motivating Ronaldo now is a romantic childhood dream to play for Real Madrid.</p>
<p>I think Ronaldo sees himself as bigger than either club. Moving to Madrid would be a massive triumph for his ego, since it would demonstrate that what he wants transcends what his employers want, as well as bringing him more money, proving that he isn&#8217;t beholden to Ferguson for his greatness, and potentially shifting the balance of power in European football all by himself (since whatever you say about the past, Man Utd are clearly a bigger club globally <em>right now</em>, in large part because of Ronaldo himself).</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what&#8217;s motivating him, not the desire to wear the same shirt as di Stefano.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131034</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>a: owen hargreaves from bayern. last year wasn&#039;t it maybe the year before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a: owen hargreaves from bayern. last year wasn&#8217;t it maybe the year before.</p>
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		<title>By: nige</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131033</link>
		<dc:creator>nige</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/c-ron-saga-giving-fergie-a-taste-of-his-own-medicine.html#comment-131033</guid>
		<description>Lets face facts. Nearly all chairman,footballers and managers are a bunch of dishonest scumbags. So. Any footy fan who pays over the odds to see these twats and then moan are without doubt the thickest twats in the sport. If you want sympathy. You can find it in the dictionary. Between shit and syph</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets face facts. Nearly all chairman,footballers and managers are a bunch of dishonest scumbags. So. Any footy fan who pays over the odds to see these twats and then moan are without doubt the thickest twats in the sport. If you want sympathy. You can find it in the dictionary. Between shit and syph</p>
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