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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;No Champions League for You!&#8221;  UEFA Threatens Debtor Clubs</title>
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		<title>By: Shazback</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-135020</link>
		<dc:creator>Shazback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think it&#039;ll be an easy ride, but I think Man U are a long way from doing a Leeds Utd and suddenly turning around and saying &quot;sorry, no more money, gotta sell half the squad&quot;. Also, if they had a debt with an Icelandic bank, they have no more debt, since said banks have gone bankrupt! So the problem is very complex. I&#039;m just stating that Man U are not yet close to going under. Arsenal (thanks to the long-term views of Wenger) and Chelsea (thanks to Abramovich&#039;s deep pockets) also seem to be reasonably safe. However, Liverpool don&#039;t seem to be so well off, between Hicks and Gillett&#039;s infighting and the failure before the credit crunch to get the money to build a stadium...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;ll be an easy ride, but I think Man U are a long way from doing a Leeds Utd and suddenly turning around and saying &#8220;sorry, no more money, gotta sell half the squad&#8221;. Also, if they had a debt with an Icelandic bank, they have no more debt, since said banks have gone bankrupt! So the problem is very complex. I&#8217;m just stating that Man U are not yet close to going under. Arsenal (thanks to the long-term views of Wenger) and Chelsea (thanks to Abramovich&#8217;s deep pockets) also seem to be reasonably safe. However, Liverpool don&#8217;t seem to be so well off, between Hicks and Gillett&#8217;s infighting and the failure before the credit crunch to get the money to build a stadium&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134994</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Shazback, much of what you say is true.  

Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, though -- my understanding of ManU&#039;s debt is that they are accumulating additional liabilities at an extremely high rate(14.25% of a £135mloan) that is not necesssarily reflected in current income statements.  All that&#039;s required on income statements -- at least all that I&#039;m seeing -- is current interest due.  And with PIKs, that&#039;s not an accurate reflection of liabilities.  As stated in the article above:

&lt;em&gt;PIK notes are debt on which lenders are not entitled to get regular interest payments until a company is sold or refinanced. Interest instead rolls up annually, often at exponential rates.&lt;/em&gt;

And the fact that they were already paying 14.25% (basically what they could be paying for a credit card) &lt;em&gt;before&lt;/em&gt; the liquidity crisis means that credit institutions aren&#039;t necessarily considering them a good financial bet.    

Add in the fact that they tried to refinance under more favorable terms last summer but weren&#039;t able to, and I&#039;m thinking there is a lot more going on than is reflected on the financials.  

Again, it&#039;s been years since I&#039;ve sat down and analyzed financial statements, so I&#039;m not saying this is accurate.  I&#039;m just saying that I&#039;m not sure that what&#039;s on those financial statements is the full picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shazback, much of what you say is true.  </p>
<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, though &#8212; my understanding of ManU&#8217;s debt is that they are accumulating additional liabilities at an extremely high rate(14.25% of a £135mloan) that is not necesssarily reflected in current income statements.  All that&#8217;s required on income statements &#8212; at least all that I&#8217;m seeing &#8212; is current interest due.  And with PIKs, that&#8217;s not an accurate reflection of liabilities.  As stated in the article above:</p>
<p><em>PIK notes are debt on which lenders are not entitled to get regular interest payments until a company is sold or refinanced. Interest instead rolls up annually, often at exponential rates.</em></p>
<p>And the fact that they were already paying 14.25% (basically what they could be paying for a credit card) <em>before</em> the liquidity crisis means that credit institutions aren&#8217;t necessarily considering them a good financial bet.    </p>
<p>Add in the fact that they tried to refinance under more favorable terms last summer but weren&#8217;t able to, and I&#8217;m thinking there is a lot more going on than is reflected on the financials.  </p>
<p>Again, it&#8217;s been years since I&#8217;ve sat down and analyzed financial statements, so I&#8217;m not saying this is accurate.  I&#8217;m just saying that I&#8217;m not sure that what&#8217;s on those financial statements is the full picture.</p>
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		<title>By: fab</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134993</link>
		<dc:creator>fab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the economy is built on debt if there was no debt there would be no money</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the economy is built on debt if there was no debt there would be no money</p>
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		<title>By: Shazback</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134992</link>
		<dc:creator>Shazback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134992</guid>
		<description>Laurie, although Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United are not obliged to release financial information, they often do. Without even searching really, I can provide a link to the 2007 statement by MUFC : http://soccerlens.com/files/red-football-june-07.pdf

As you can see, after repaying interest on their debt, MUFC made 87 million GBP between June 2006 and June 2007 (page 8). Also, the club&#039;s assets amount to 827 million GBP (page 6, notes 9-12)... 

Having 1.32 billion GBP debt IS a lot of debt. But when you have 827 million GBP in assets and 87 million in annual profits (post-interest), it&#039;s less risky. 

Sure, the credit crunch can mean a lot of things (for instance, will Man U still be having a 300+ million euro turnover?), but so far the debt level Man U has is not very dangerous. The EPL just signed new media deals, Man U can cash their cheque for winning the champion&#039;s league, and even after cashing out to sell Berbatov it&#039;s hard to imagine Man U needing more money than, say, selling Ronaldo would provide...

Your comparison with the French league is misleading, to say the least... English clubs can only take out loans against existing assets (much like a French club). However, whilst the vast majority of English clubs -have- assets other than their employees/players (stadia, training grounds, sometimes merchandising brands, so forth), almost no French clubs have such assets. The only Ligue 1 club that owns their stadium is Auxerre. A stadium is typically worth several million pounds, more often tens or hundreds for top league stadiums! French clubs can&#039;t loan money because they have very small assets. It&#039;s like looking at someone without a house, and saying it&#039;s strange he can&#039;t get as good a loan as someone with a house (both similarly employed, so forth). The Stade Velodrome, the Parc des Princes, the Stade Gerland... Even the Stade de la Route de Lorient are worth a large amount of money. But they are assets that are owned by the city councils, and not by the clubs. Thus meaning that the clubs can&#039;t use them to broker a loan. French clubs aren&#039;t all in the black all the time (Marseille are a club that regularly rely on their president&#039;s deep pockets, as did PSG under the Canal+ era), but when your total assets are your squad... Well suddenly having a five-ten million loss is a big problem. Not only because it probably means you&#039;re losing assets (bad financial results often go in hand with bad sporting results), and when your total assets are perhaps only fifty million... Well, ten million in losses is 20% of your worth. It&#039;s not at all the same thing when a club like Man U with 870 million in assets (plus players) has a 10 million deficit... In their case it&#039;s less than 2%!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurie, although Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United are not obliged to release financial information, they often do. Without even searching really, I can provide a link to the 2007 statement by MUFC : <a href="http://soccerlens.com/files/red-football-june-07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://soccerlens.com/files/red-football-june-07.pdf</a></p>
<p>As you can see, after repaying interest on their debt, MUFC made 87 million GBP between June 2006 and June 2007 (page 8). Also, the club&#8217;s assets amount to 827 million GBP (page 6, notes 9-12)&#8230; </p>
<p>Having 1.32 billion GBP debt IS a lot of debt. But when you have 827 million GBP in assets and 87 million in annual profits (post-interest), it&#8217;s less risky. </p>
<p>Sure, the credit crunch can mean a lot of things (for instance, will Man U still be having a 300+ million euro turnover?), but so far the debt level Man U has is not very dangerous. The EPL just signed new media deals, Man U can cash their cheque for winning the champion&#8217;s league, and even after cashing out to sell Berbatov it&#8217;s hard to imagine Man U needing more money than, say, selling Ronaldo would provide&#8230;</p>
<p>Your comparison with the French league is misleading, to say the least&#8230; English clubs can only take out loans against existing assets (much like a French club). However, whilst the vast majority of English clubs -have- assets other than their employees/players (stadia, training grounds, sometimes merchandising brands, so forth), almost no French clubs have such assets. The only Ligue 1 club that owns their stadium is Auxerre. A stadium is typically worth several million pounds, more often tens or hundreds for top league stadiums! French clubs can&#8217;t loan money because they have very small assets. It&#8217;s like looking at someone without a house, and saying it&#8217;s strange he can&#8217;t get as good a loan as someone with a house (both similarly employed, so forth). The Stade Velodrome, the Parc des Princes, the Stade Gerland&#8230; Even the Stade de la Route de Lorient are worth a large amount of money. But they are assets that are owned by the city councils, and not by the clubs. Thus meaning that the clubs can&#8217;t use them to broker a loan. French clubs aren&#8217;t all in the black all the time (Marseille are a club that regularly rely on their president&#8217;s deep pockets, as did PSG under the Canal+ era), but when your total assets are your squad&#8230; Well suddenly having a five-ten million loss is a big problem. Not only because it probably means you&#8217;re losing assets (bad financial results often go in hand with bad sporting results), and when your total assets are perhaps only fifty million&#8230; Well, ten million in losses is 20% of your worth. It&#8217;s not at all the same thing when a club like Man U with 870 million in assets (plus players) has a 10 million deficit&#8230; In their case it&#8217;s less than 2%!</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134990</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Its there any club in the world that belongs to itself or isn’t owned by someone or an entity.&quot;

This is the case for Bundesliga clubs with the exception of Leverkusen and Wolfsburg, where there is the special situation that the clubs were founded by companies, and as such the companies were allowed to &quot;own&quot; them, though they aren&#039;t allowed to sell them as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Its there any club in the world that belongs to itself or isn’t owned by someone or an entity.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is the case for Bundesliga clubs with the exception of Leverkusen and Wolfsburg, where there is the special situation that the clubs were founded by companies, and as such the companies were allowed to &#8220;own&#8221; them, though they aren&#8217;t allowed to sell them as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134987</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 03:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jan says:  &lt;em&gt;But do the leveraged takeovers of Liverpool and Manu really pose such a problem? If the clubs can’t finance them, the owners might back out of their investment and someone else jumps in. Due to the level of debt the clubs might be available at a bargain price?? &lt;/em&gt;

Jan, interesting point.  Chris and I were talking about this earlier today, and he said that&#039;s just what happened in Italy in the 90s -- the owners defaulted and the clubs were sold.  It looks at least somewhat likely in the case of one or more of the highly-indebted clubs as well.  The question is what a club which has been through this kind of restructuring -- and which lacks the ability to rack up more debt -- will look like.  My guess is it won&#039;t look much like the clubs as we know them today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jan says:  <em>But do the leveraged takeovers of Liverpool and Manu really pose such a problem? If the clubs can’t finance them, the owners might back out of their investment and someone else jumps in. Due to the level of debt the clubs might be available at a bargain price?? </em></p>
<p>Jan, interesting point.  Chris and I were talking about this earlier today, and he said that&#8217;s just what happened in Italy in the 90s &#8212; the owners defaulted and the clubs were sold.  It looks at least somewhat likely in the case of one or more of the highly-indebted clubs as well.  The question is what a club which has been through this kind of restructuring &#8212; and which lacks the ability to rack up more debt &#8212; will look like.  My guess is it won&#8217;t look much like the clubs as we know them today.</p>
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		<title>By: Lissette Evil Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134985</link>
		<dc:creator>Lissette Evil Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Its there any club in the world that belongs to itself or isn&#039;t owned by someone or an entity. 
“What is important is that the level of indebtedness is proportionate to the income.” this reminds me of something my gradnma says &quot;don&#039;t buy chit U can not afford, AKA If U dont have the money dont buy it. Its sounds pretty convenient &amp; reasonable to say that the debt shouldn&#039;t be bigger than the profit. Cus obiuosly that ain&#039;t aint good people. As I have read in Soccerlens an article about the Bundesliga. It is very importatnt 4 the clubs to have stability in order to participate. It doesn&#039;t talk about debt or a perfect financial status. Stability</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its there any club in the world that belongs to itself or isn&#8217;t owned by someone or an entity.<br />
“What is important is that the level of indebtedness is proportionate to the income.” this reminds me of something my gradnma says &#8220;don&#8217;t buy chit U can not afford, AKA If U dont have the money dont buy it. Its sounds pretty convenient &amp; reasonable to say that the debt shouldn&#8217;t be bigger than the profit. Cus obiuosly that ain&#8217;t aint good people. As I have read in Soccerlens an article about the Bundesliga. It is very importatnt 4 the clubs to have stability in order to participate. It doesn&#8217;t talk about debt or a perfect financial status. Stability</p>
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		<title>By: frem</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134984</link>
		<dc:creator>frem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>actually manU is in quite a bit of danger. They have very high debts and very high interest with no real way to make the money back easily.
Arsenal and liverpool both have debts but its due to stadiums and expenses which will be reduced by selling the old stadium(like buying a house for 300,000 while still owning your old one and when you move out you sell your old one for 250,000 reducing the debt considerably)
Chelsea is a special case, they are closer to ManU in terms of type of debt and size but they dont need to make payments of 100million in interest or whatever every year. 
Wenger is super smart with arsenal, he know he can spend but every year he keeps the 30million pounds inside the debt means a smaller interest rate and that means they can pay it off faster, selling players for a profit then means he can make it back even faster. When arsenal&#039;s is repaid they will begin to spend again and truly start rebuilding their team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>actually manU is in quite a bit of danger. They have very high debts and very high interest with no real way to make the money back easily.<br />
Arsenal and liverpool both have debts but its due to stadiums and expenses which will be reduced by selling the old stadium(like buying a house for 300,000 while still owning your old one and when you move out you sell your old one for 250,000 reducing the debt considerably)<br />
Chelsea is a special case, they are closer to ManU in terms of type of debt and size but they dont need to make payments of 100million in interest or whatever every year.<br />
Wenger is super smart with arsenal, he know he can spend but every year he keeps the 30million pounds inside the debt means a smaller interest rate and that means they can pay it off faster, selling players for a profit then means he can make it back even faster. When arsenal&#8217;s is repaid they will begin to spend again and truly start rebuilding their team.</p>
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		<title>By: mele419</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134982</link>
		<dc:creator>mele419</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As others have said, Chelsea doesn&#039;t count, thanks to their Roman and his billions...
I also think Utd are pretty safe, but Arsenal and L&#039;pool would seem to be the most in danger.
Thats just me though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As others have said, Chelsea doesn&#8217;t count, thanks to their Roman and his billions&#8230;<br />
I also think Utd are pretty safe, but Arsenal and L&#8217;pool would seem to be the most in danger.<br />
Thats just me though.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134980</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/no-champions-league-for-you-uefa-threatens-debtor-clubs.html#comment-134980</guid>
		<description>This is a good point. It has been common in Spain, that the real estate boom helped clubs refinance themselves a lot. Real Madrid were able to sell their training ground for hundreds of millions of Euros, wiping out their debt and allowing them to build a new training center elsewhere, which in turn rose sharply in value very quickly. This would be quite a bit more difficult now. I think Valencia plans to do something like that with their old stadium. This could not be quite as profitable as they originally thought it would now...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good point. It has been common in Spain, that the real estate boom helped clubs refinance themselves a lot. Real Madrid were able to sell their training ground for hundreds of millions of Euros, wiping out their debt and allowing them to build a new training center elsewhere, which in turn rose sharply in value very quickly. This would be quite a bit more difficult now. I think Valencia plans to do something like that with their old stadium. This could not be quite as profitable as they originally thought it would now&#8230;</p>
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