Photo of the Day: Football in Qatar

Ladies and gents, I'm going to close comments on this one. Lots of good points have been made, and I don't want this to get nasty.

Thanks for participating. I can't wait to find my next controversial photo. :-)

Laurie he is sitting third row from the top left corner.

In 21st century men and women can sit side by side, without any sexual
deviations and enjoy the beautiful game. Of course if the guy beside your wife/girlfriend
is getting a little too obnoxious, well there are ways to deal with that as well.
From my own experience I yet to see a fight based on disrespecting the ladies!
So Why should they be denied the opportunity of experiencing a live match?
That would be like denying men going to a women's game, how absurd is that?
All religions should be like computer softwares that need significant updates every
1000 years ?? LOL Please keep sports and religions separate. It would be interesting
though to have leagues based on religion, lets roll back the times and start cooking with coal, and bring back the oil lamp and of course the most dependable mode of transportation, never runs out of fuel, the good old dromedary.

I Just like to point out Divorce was used long ago way before Islam had a name as a religion it did not make it up first. It was used long long ago before the Qua'ran came about. Unless the Qur'an mentions Moses having a divorce and we know that all the stories of the Prophets are different from the Bible anyway if not less is mentioned.
But what people did between that time and ours is lost through out history of time and changes. Freedoms and choices evolved societies made and lost, it was never a frozen state.

(Matt 5:31-32, NASB)
"And it was said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of dismissal'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." (Matt 5:31-32, NASB)

And some Pharisees came to Him, testing Him, and saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ' For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh'? Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matt 19:3-9)

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Divorce was used but does not mean God approved in the spirit of man but it happened and does happen. In the end the judgement is in Heaven not on earth and the end choice is yours but your spiritual judgement is between you and God and no one should get stonned or killed by it. The Old Testament applied to a Covenant of purity where Heaven and Earth was joined to the hip, if man overcame certain tasks then the rules changed. Some things changed because like Jesus, God in the Flesh he could turn the switchs a bit between Earth and heaven and openned a more tollerant door that the perfection of heaven required and saved man to be able to be resserected.

As for the Middle East even being in the queuing with a woman at a super market is wrong and many jobs for women require permission on paper including for driving. But things will change, I just hope they understand their own scriptures, the ones at the top read it often enough to make judgements and cultural laws. Then again I ask do our own Priests in the West understand the Bible any more?

Also, if the images in the picture is not the result of the religious prejudice against women, then why is it that only muslim nations prevent, by law and by force of arrest and jail, women from enjoying sporting events. It is disgusting and I do not care who is offended by me and others pointing this out.

Can I move to Saudi, or Iran, or Yemen, or Afghanistan, or Libya, or...and freely and safely practice my religion , even if its judaism, and speak my mind against islam if I choose? Can I do this in any nation in the world with a majority muslim population?(maybe bosnia/albania that in virtually every western nation.

And lets be honest--religion is the overwhelming factor in the culture itself in islamic nations.

Of course things are not great for women everywhere else. I was only responding to Tamim whose arguments seemed to be that everything was great for women and they dont want to go watch football anyway. I dont agree.

I dont understand why people assume this is a west versus east argument. Just because I dont agree with one aspect of a system does not mean I agree with another.

And I dont think my response to Tamim means I am a bigot, only that I dont agree that women are treated like "precious diamonds" in all Islamic nations.

I never said that Islam was wrong or backward or that Arabs were evil. I dont think that is true, and, as a student of culture, I know the difference between Islam as a religion and how it has been interpreted by Arab tribes. As I said, my reply was in response to Tamim.

As for Turkey, the thread was speaking about gulf states (as was I). I fully agree that not all "Islamic" countries restrict women, only that some do.

Sandrahn, I am sorry that you were so offended, but I also think you are a little defensive. Read Tamim's post then my reply.

All that matters to this discussion is whether women get the same rights as men in this country, as far as attending a football match goes. They don't. If a group of five women wants to go to a football game, they can't. And that needs to change. You can argue that this is the result of Qatari culture: as Tamim pointed out, women are treated like diamonds--something delicate that mustn't be tarnished. The sentiment is "noble," but it restricts the freedom of women, making it wrong.

But let's be clear: making this an issue of wider Arab or Muslim culture is nonsense.

johonna, your posts are self-righteous and bigoted. Gee, like no one knows that "it is not all moonbeams and roses for women in Saudi Arabia"! WOW! Thank you for such an amazing discovery! STOP THE PRESSES!

Inara's posts are excellent. I've studied and worked in the Middle East. I studied at the American Universities in Cairo and Beirut. I was raised a Catholic and come from Brazil. What disgusts me here is the notion that everywhere else in the world things are just rosy and "moonbeams" for women, except in Islamic countries. Honor killings are very common in rural areas in Brazil and other parts of Latin America, not to mention non-Islamic parts of Asia. Girl infants are routinely killed in non-Islamic parts of Africa and Asia.

Islam comprises many different countries and cultures. The condition of women varies throughout North Africa, West Africa, the Gulf, South Asia, East Asia, Eastern Europe. Syria, for example, is a highly secular state where women can go to stadiums, dress as they please, etc. So was Iraq under Saddam. Islam in Turkey is quite different from Saudi Arabia -- women can go to stadiums in Turkey. "Honor killings" happen in different non-Islamic cultures in Africa and do not happen in most Islamic countries. In highly conservative Islamic states, women's lives are highly restricted -- yet in Iran and Saudi Arabia more than half (about 60%) of university students are women. In Saudi, you're seeing more and more women in high status professions such as physicians and engineers, working right alongside men. Countries like Afghanistan are deeply retrograde and are viewed as deeply backward and ignorant by Iran and other Gulf countries.

Honestly, Laurie, you really opened up a can of worms here given the reality of hatred so many ignorant people in the west feel toward Islam and Arabs (often conflating the two--not all Arabs are Muslims). Bad enuf there's so much room on this site to express bigotry against other nationalities.

Just so everyone knows, I was in no way arguing for Christianity by my post. It is not an "either or" argument.

Saying that Christians are worse, it in no way makes the other things any better.

Basically, I was just trying to point out that it is not all moonbeams and roses for women in Saudi Arabia - precious diamond aside.

@johonna
Dont know where you got your informations about islam but i can assure you it is from a very biased source, raped women do not get stoned in islam and if it is prcaticed in some islamic countries it is tribal laws which are actually forbidden by islam. and for the divorce issue it is more complicated than to be discussed here but i would only like to let you know that women also have the right to annul marriages , and because the christian idea of eternal marriage is so unrealistic that is why western communities rcently adapted what islam regulated 14 centuries ago.
Reviewing all the comments posted, sorry to say this is not the place to open such a discussion. this is a cultural issue that wouldnt be solved simply by debate (my lifestyle is better than yours) it just doesnt work that way. people are different in what they look to and want in life and sometimes "freedom" as you view it in the west is not someone's priority in life.

And Laurie: Top left, guy without a head-dress.

As a woman who has gone to football stadiums, I have never had a single problem with anyone - man or woman (even the bulky ones). My question would be, why would men in gulf states behave differently than men in American or European stadiums? If they think women are precious diamonds why do they need protection? Why doesn't the men just treat them with respect?

Oh, and you should add to your list:
right to be stoned to death because you are raped: Check
right to be forcibly divorced from your husband just because he says so: Check.

so now we are discussing islam on the offside!!!!!!!

to all tose who criticised women rights in islam; what are hese rights.

the right to vote: present
right to own properties:present
right to chose and refuse marriage proposals: present
right to work:present
right for education:present

i guess that the veil and having relationships is your problem, but i am just going to answer that with a simple metaphore

if you have sth precious andexpensive like a diamond for example, would u leave it in an open place without any protection and anyone can damage it or steal it. i think no.

this is exactly islam's ideology in dealing with women.

usually football stadiums are a place for the bulky people go and when women go there they face many problems with these kind of people so they don't go or they aren't allowed to go "alone" to avoid them these problems!!

ForeverZidane, I don't see it. I feel like I'm flunking "Where's Waldo."

Personally I'm so disappointed that no one picked up on the guy wearing the "REAL MADRID" shirt, bet you it's number 5 on the back of the jersey!!! LOL

I agree, mele. It would be nice if progress were universal and happened at the same time, and everyone has the right to a fair and equal future. But the good news is that as the world continues to become increasingly global, progress will come to those countries whether they want it or not. It's no longer possible to halt change.

I just want to say I'm very open minded, and I don't want to seem ignorant or arrogant. I just think that it's not right that women can't enjoy the same rights as men in these places. And I know it isn't Islam itself that makes this happen, it's the leader's interpretation of Islam, which seems to be wrong. And it is true that 50 years ago America had very limited rights, but we moved past that and look at us now. I just hope that these Muslim nations, as well as other non-Muslim nations that practice the same infringements on basic rights can move on too, and consider everyone equal.
Also, it's impossible to make a blanket statement when human beings are involved. There is always an outlier, so to say that all Imams are growing narrow minded is very inaccurate. There are, without doubt, many who have, but on the other hand there are many more who have not at all, and then again, on the third hand there are many Priests and Rabbis that are narrow minded, and many that are not. I don't know if anything I said made sense or fit in here, but I felt the need to say it all.

First of all, a religion isn't supposed to move anywhere, nor is it supposed to change. That's what culture is supposed to do. I think you are missing my point and are confusing the two. No religion accepts other religions. The whole point of it is that the one you follow is right while the others you follow are wrong. But cultures should allow multiple religions to exist simultaneously, and this is something that some countries have a problem with.

Secondly, these freedoms you are listing are unavailable in a lot of places, not just those where Islam is the main religion. These very same freedoms were just ideas in the US not that long ago. Desegregation took place barely 50 years ago. So it's not we in the US have always been about freedom for everyone at every time.

And you are generalizing in assuming that all imans are growing more narrow minded. Perhaps you should meet mine.

Yes Ivanna, but Islam is not moving in the direction of more freedom, but more restrictions and more conrol by the imams who do not care for BASIC rights. Not compicated, Ivanna: freedonm to say what you want to, freedom to be an atheist, or Jew, or Buddhist, freedom to leave your parents religion, freedom to chart your own course. Don't be deceitful snd pretend its too compicated to address.

@ Ivanna Ballar
"Culture hasn’t advanced in the Middle East as quickly as it has in the west, but eventually, things will change."
That's the basic message I was trying to get across in my first comment.

And thanks to those who agree with me! I agree with pretty much all of your opinions as well.

jon: No one said that isolation or segregation was okay. Simply that keeping men and women separate is a cultural practice in the Middle East. How we feel about it in the west is another matter entirely.

ghost of steve finnan: Well, I am Muslim woman, and a rather free one at that, so...I guess you could say I know what I'm talking about.

First, I'm not sure where you have the idea that Islam denies BASIC rights to women?

I don't really want to go into this, because this is a very complicated topic that's more suited for a classroom, but in the religion, men and women have equal rights. In fact, the Quran gives women much more freedom than the Bible or any other religious text. Where things went wrong is when cultural interpretations come into play. The way women are treated in the Middle East isn't right, but it's not the fault of the religion but men in power interpreting it in an abusive way. Something that happens everywhere, not just in the Middle East.

I also want to point out that the equality and freedom of women in western society is recent as well - it hasn't even been a hundred years since women had the right to vote in the US. And only a little longer since women were allowed the right to their own finances and property. Before then, women in the US and Europe were treated rather poorly and had few rights of their own.

Culture hasn't advanced in the Middle East as quickly as it has in the west, but eventually, things will change.

Amen John. And to Ivana, if you think there is not a problem within islam itself regarding the freedom of women (and men, for that matter), you are not being honest, or you are completely ignorant. And I agree with mele. Freedom is freedom. Don't call denial of BASIC rights to half your population anything but TYRANNY. That's just a fact.

To all the super-sensitive haters of women's rights, I hope I have insulted you. You deserve it!

FREEDOM FOR ALL REGARDLESS OF GENDER!!!!

YAY FOR CULTURAL RELATIVISM!

Sometimes, things can be wrong. Bold it, underline it, put a hat on it. These things can even be identified from outside the culture they are occurring in.

The isolation and segregation (be if of their own guilt-prodded volition or by strict edict) is a universal wrong. It should be interesting to note that numerous conservative Islamic countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia, and others) protest against the Universal Declaration of Human Right. Read it.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rig...
Not a lot of stuff to disagree with. It highlights the difference between them and the rest of the world.

Way to fit the Dubya stereotypes?
Well tell me then, what other kind of freedom is there?
None.
Plain and simple.
Anything else is not, in fact, freedom, thus it would be wrong to call it that.

Tamim, I've just removed two comments that went beyond the topic at hand (women in stadiums) and moved toward broader attacks.

To everyone else, no slurs toward religion, etc. Cultural discussion and disagreement is okay.

laurie: i found some comments offensive to me as an arab and muslim....how exactly do you define offending comments?

it would expose them to a lot of groping, lewd behavior, and offensive comments from many of the men who otherwise do not come that close to women

Dammit! I've been going to the wrong games. None of this stuff EVER happens to me!

And if you didn’t expect a discussion on this topic Laurie, then why post a pic merely for factual purposes???

Ebrahim, I love discussion and debate. I'm not at all offended when people come in and offer opposing viewpoints. That's why we always leave comments open unless they get really abusive. And we post pictures for factual purposes pretty much every day. Some are controversial, some aren't.

As Ivanna said, it's nothing to do with religion here. I was at a game in Metz, France last year where as a female I was outnumbered about 20-1. If I'd thought to bring a camera I would have posted that too.

if youre not from this part of the world youre not going to understand how things work over there... if their culture doesnt have to make sense to you, thats perfectly fine.. just dont dismiss it as being below you... thats pretty arrogant... the same way you might feel about their culture, is the same way they probably feel about your culture.. so in the end we all stay ignorant and dont progress as human beings...

mele419: i am not surprised from your reply!!, if you had any basic knowledge or did some research before posting your comment u would have found out that arab countries are divided to 3 main areas: north africa, gulf countries and el sham(iraq,syria,lebanon,jordan,palestine) the gulf area is very different from the other two because -again- they are bedouins and their culture is different than yours. (they don't have to be like you so that u like them)

so egypt isn't a gulf country and the culture here is very different from the gulf countries,under islamic context.

anyway, the offside isn't a suitable place for such a discussion and i don't know how they allow this kind of undermining posts.

"Well then, if everyone’s idea of freedom isn’t the same as mine, they are simply wrong."

Wow, way to fit into the Dubbya mold of american stereotypes.

How can anyone judge a group's extent of freedom from one picture??

Tamim, you realize you just blatantly contradicted yourself, right?

"first, women are allowed in stadiums in most arab countries and u can watch african cup in 2006 and the huge amount of girls in the stands supporting the egyptian team"

"second, women in gulf countries are simply not interested in sports; they neither want to go to stadiums or play it themselves."

Well then, if everyone's idea of freedom isn't the same as mine, they are simply wrong.

mele419... not everyone's idea of freedom is the same as yours.

And if you didn't expect a discussion on this topic Laurie, then why post a pic merely for factual purposes???

So why put this picture up Laurie??? Just to point out the absence of women as a mere fact without expecting a discussion??

With your argument, it would have been equally 'factual' to have just put up a picture of a man! "Oh look, this is a man, not a woman..."

because the culture is totally different than any place in the world, u won't understand that unless u go live there for a while!!

I must agree with Laurie. Talk about your gross oversimplifications. I dont think you can say that all women in gulf states are not interested in watching or participating in football.

And Laurie, if we are to believe that film about female football fans in Iran, there could be women in that picture - they are just in disguise!

There is nothing biased about what I wrote -- I was merely pointing out that there are no women in the picture. Simple statement of fact, unless you can point one out that I missed.

I absolutely do not believe that, without exception, women in Gulf states do not like sports. There has been at least one movie made about female fans in Iran, where women are banned from games. My guess is that it would be the same in any culture. Why would women in Gulf states not be every bit as diverse as women in the rest of the world, where some like sports and some don't?

now this post is very offensive and biased and very untrue. i don't like qatar and i am not a fan of their football but you just exceeded this limit and turned everybody on against islam and arabs which is a very stupid thing to do in a well respected FOOTBALL site here. u didn't give yourself the chance to see the bigger picture here; however you went for the easy stereotype.

first, women are allowed in stadiums in most arab countries and u can watch african cup in 2006 and the huge amount of girls in the stands supporting the egyptian team

second, women in gulf countries are simply not interested in sports; they neither want to go to stadiums or play it themselves.

third, gulf residents come from a bedouin culture and you have to respect that although it is very different from the one in europe.

please be careful what you write next time.

Hey Laurie, I knew something was missing from the main page while you were gone. Thanks for posting stuff like this.

I think we can safely assume Qatar will not be winning the womens world cup anytime soon.

I'm very respectful person no matter what u believe in or all that things that make us different. but I just can't stand this kinds of things. and let see if time will tell. Laurie tanx 4 tha post :(

No, I haven't been to Brussels, seeing as I'm from Boston.
And yes, I will feel bad for the Muslims from my high perch of freedom.
Excuse me for believing everyone should be considered equal, regaurdless of skin color, sex or religion.
Let's all be sarcastic from our high thrown from the middle ages.

Individuality is what come to mind.

Let's all feel sorry for the Arabs from our high perch...

in time theyll allow women into their stadiums, why shouldn't they?

tje hickorij: Yes I have, its a pretty beautiful city as a matter of fact.

@mele, Yeah. "In time", except.... in real life time, it'll be europe islamicized not the other way around. You been to brussels lately???

well, in time...
I think it's sad really, but that's just how they do it there, and how they always have.