Putting MLS Attendance Numbers in Perspective

Hello,
I am a REdBull (Metrostars) supporter. I noticed the one poster mention, "I will go when there is a team worth supporting". Whats up with that? Why not support the local team? You compare the quality of MLS play to other leagues, but the thing you forget to mention is the unyielding fan support these clubs get. You support a club through thick and thin. Thats how it should work. You think people in England root for another team after their club gets relegated?? Of course not.

I root for Red Bulls becuase I am from New Jersey. I would never change my stance because of what players they bring in or any other managerial circumstances.

Crazy thing is, I never played much soccer until now (24 yrs old). I played American Football my whole life, even in college. But the passion necessary to be a soccer fan is incredible and I love that. That is what draws me to this game. (to be fair, I must mention that my whole family is soccer players, father even played with the NY Cosmos in the late 70's).


ANyway, I think an interesting thing for the MLS to do would be to have a two tier league with the USL. Have a relegation and promotion system. Maybe even a 3tier league with the MLS, USL1, and USL 2


Go Red Bulls!
Go US National team!!

One other thing, I have the luxury of living in a market with 2 MLS franchises, and I have season tickets to both (are either of them my chosen team? no, I'm a Chicago fan.) I've been able to witness up close and personal (have friends on both teams) the tale of 2 cities, and I can tell you that money does not buy a solution. The Beckham factor attracts twice as many fans but half as much atmosphere. For their part, Chivas' success on the field has not equated to success at the gate (even though their ticket prices are 30% cheaper and falling!)

Mexicans are among the most jingoistic of fans- most of them come to see a match, not because they are futbol fans but because it reminds them of home. If you don't have a player that instills those memories, you might as well be presenting a croquet match. At no time was this more evident for me than the Chivas/Fire sellout (there twice as many yellow jerseys in the crowd as there were colors that were actually on the field, and they were cheering for 1 out of the 22 guys on the field.)

Unfortunately, Chivas dies by the same sword by which it attempts to live- for every fan you attract with the Chivas brand, you repel nine others, who are fans of another Mexican team (not to mention the Chivas d.G. fans who reject the American subsidiary.)

Everybody talks about what MLS needs to succeed, when the solution is obvious. It needs selfless fans who are willing to come and see a game and participate, regardless of who's playing, how much money is running around on the field, or what country they're from. Those who stay away, claiming "MLS sucks", are actually the ones doing the sucking.

'Hear Hear' to what Slimj091 said about supporting this league. I find it amazing that 'fans' of foreign origin, from countries with such participatory fan bases, think this league is just going to grow up without them, and they can choose to participate when they feel it's "good enough". It's a participatory event, man! No participation, no event! People who refuse to attend, claiming MLS sucks (obviously haven't been paying attention) aren't fans, they're spectators. And not even real spectators at that.

Those of us who know this game, who grew up playing this game, know that it's spectacular plays and events that make this game interesting (not scorelines or sky-high salaries.) I used to make it my goal that I'd see just one of those events- something I couldn't do or a play I'd never seen before, when I'd come to an MLS game. And I would. Now I see at least 4 or 5 of those events, if not 10-20! I still see bad passes and balls kicked in the stands, but since I've started looking for those in games in Europe, I notice how many I've overlooked just because it's "European Football". A player I love, van Nistelroij, missed a penalty today by a mile (living up to his Dutch heritage), but would I or any other fan in their right mind skip a chance to see a CL match because of it? No, because we cut them more slack. I grew up without a league, so I'll jump at any opportunity that exists to support the one that I have now.

The only thing I would love to see is more effort being made to acknowledge the fans who have been loyal to this effort. The fact that we had to participate in the same pool of fans for US WC tickets with the new-comers and scalpers is a bit annoying. We're the reason the Nats are even competing in that tournament, it's a program that wouldn't be nearly as competitive with out the development entity that is MLS.

When i was in the States 30 years ago the attendance for the Chicago Sting was 5000.Now i notice that the Fire draws 15000.So the improvement is great.With the number of American kids playing the game rising the overall standard of the game will be improving and more fans will be drawn to the stands.It is a long process butsooner or later things will get much better.I wish the MLS the best of luck.

You can't expect the MLS to play at EPL levels if their attendance levels are well below that of The Championship. I feel that MLS has done a great job, relative to the level of support US soccer fans have given them. MLS is taking the NASCAR approach, apposed to the formula 1 approach. They are pushing parity over having a couple of dominant teams. This make sense in the US since the teams play in single markets (except in LA). London has 5 teams playing at the EPL level, and there are 7 in the Liverpool, Manchester and Blackburn region. It makes since for the European leagues to have a few dominant teams because they have multiple teams in each Metro region, and have great inter league competition. A fan may pull for the team closest to them in the EPL, but pull for Man U, in inter league play.

US soccer fans have to appreciate that the MLS is developing American soccer players. Having a league that tries to achieve parity is good for developing players. If more soccer fans go see the games, the league would have more money, and could bring in better foreign players to improve the competition for the American players. This will enable the US to be more competitive in the World Cup, which is the big payoff for American soccer fans and American TV.

That said, I think they also need to pay American players at comparable levels. There is a glut of great foreign players, so they don't need to spend a fortune on Prema Donna's. Although if you get the right Prema Donna they can sell a lot of Jersey's and make the league money.

Attendance could be improved if the American Sports media gave the league more air time. The league is not well covered in sports news. The media needs to understand that the big pay off in soccer will be the World Cup and not MLS, but that you need MLS to get that big pay off. I predict that if the US ever gets to the finals of the World Cup, the TV ratings for that game will be the highest for any sporting event in US history. Now that is a big pay off!!!

"Also, the MLS sucks. I consider myself a somewhat astute soccer watcher and I find it hard to sit through an MLS game on TV. I can’t imagine going to a game here (NY) and spending $35 plus transportation or parking costs just to sit in the upper deck of the Meadowlands. There is no passion about the games because there is no connection yet to a broader sense of accomplishment. 10 years in and the MLS’ best teams would have a hard time avoiding relegation in the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, or Ligue 1. And they wouldn’t vie for the title in Scotland, Portugal, or Belgium either. Even compared to other teams and leagues in this hemisphere (specifically Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina) the MLS’ best make a mockery of the beautiful game.

That’s not to say that the US doesn’t have potential and I’ll be the first in line to buy season tickets whenever there’s a team worth supporting. I love the fact that Chivas USA fans are so nuts and, in fact, Chicago Fire fans are quite nuts too, but I won’t pay to see the Red Bulls play unless it’s against Barcelona (which I did go see) or another top club."

Isaiah that is exactly one of the major problems. too many soccer/football fans in the United States "waiting" for the right time to show their support for the MLS. everyone can wait forever and the MLS will never, ever be on par with the top leagues in the world. but if we actually support the league that plays in out backyard instead of the one's across the pond then we will definetly start seeing improvement.

before i end this i would like to ask each and every MLS naysayer to point out for me in the history of football or even sports in general where a league has started out as the very best in the world after the sport was founded?

no league or sport gets "better" without the support of it's fans.

MLS sucks, soccer is a sport for idiots.
Sports = Football, baseball, basketball, hockey

The point really is that the MLS sucks.

The decrease in England had the simple reason that tickets cost way too much.

And yes, in February it has minus degrees most of the time, so I guess my nuts are bigger than yours. But don't worry. It becomes warmer by March.

What New York could use is a soccer-specific stadium and not a $1 billion Yankees stadium. I agree, though, with almost everything that James is saying. What I disagree with is the scheduling because you don't want to play in the February or March in the northern US. Not in Ohio (Crew), Boston (Revolution), or New York (Red Bulls). At least I don't want to play then. The other markets like Dallas, Los Angeles, and even DC are quite capable of playing at any time of the year and only the heat in the summer would dissuade you from playing outdoors there. But New York in February is not a time for outdoor games, much less Boston.

I don't know what it's like in Germany in February or March, so I can't say if it's better or worse than the Boston area and if the Germans just have bigger nuts than I.

I think MLS is far from a disgrace or anything like that and this just further proves it. Now that most teams have their own stadium and we can hopefully stop having to watch games with those awful football hash marks everywhere, I am hoping the league will do three things:

1) allow each team to operate independently ie make their own player decisions with the view toward winning and drawing crowds - and making back investments.

2) get on the right schedule. Play the German schedule of early August to May with a break in the winter. Plus, move to one table. East and West is ridiculous at this point.

3) get in some kind of major tournaments. heck try and get teams in canada and mexico to play if nothing else, but my eye is firmly on the copa libertadores.

I say all we need to think about is the red bull new york team. Here we have a team in very much a soccer friendly part of the country (look at all the europeans and latinos in nyc and also the grass roots in NJ) that just happens to be the biggest market in the country and the team has stunk since day one. come on. If market forces could take hold new york could and would have a competitive franchise and you would see a bunch more people watching on tv and in the stadium.

Further while prem attendance may not be overwelming, on the big nights when champs league comes to town tickets are VERY hard to come by. Why couldn't it be so. I saw a packed stadium once to see River Plate play at the meadowlands against rangers for abosolutely nothing. think about if it was a Copa Lib game. Even if MLS wasn't competiitve at first we could get there.

The carryover effects for the national team are self evident as well. The US is never going to interest Europe but i think that Latin America has enough to gain from being here that the federations could be interested. shoot a sold out giants stadium would just have to interest those clubs which are notoriously short of money (even the good and well supported ones).

Could be wishful thinking but i think the numbers could support my case.

if you think thats bad.. in italy the average attendance to games has dropped below 20,000 ... and now they thuink that in england its gonna start dropping as well, as its already started to show, they said that only Man U and Arsenal really pull the only huge crowds any more .. so FIFA really needs to something really quick and so to does the Italian and english football associations

I think also that pure numbers isn't necessarily a reflection of the health of the league. Serie A and the Premiership might not pull big crowds like they used to, but it's of little concern to them because the money they make from things like TV rights is skyrocketing.

Juventus is a great example of this - a club who deliberately disassociated themselves from their geographical base so as to appeal to a worldwide audience. They don't pull big crowds (especially not now!) but they've always made heaps of dough from TV, jerseys etc.

This alternative income stream isn't as available to MLS, so a decline in crowds for them is far more important.

The MLS *should* be better run and supported by more than 80% of the leagues around the world. With the sporting revenue the NFL brings in every year, it's not a surprise that the expectations are very high. The US prides itself on always being better at sports than everywhere else and there's no reason to think that soccer should be different.

The MLS suffers from the fact that it is "new" (is 10 years new?) and that idiots like Jim Rome continue to have mid-afternoon ESPN shows where they lambast soccer as being for pansies. Sportscenter generally shows a soccer highlight once a month while they show groundouts from baseball as numbers 4-10 on the Best Plays Countdown. That contributes a lot.

Also, the MLS sucks. I consider myself a somewhat astute soccer watcher and I find it hard to sit through an MLS game on TV. I can't imagine going to a game here (NY) and spending $35 plus transportation or parking costs just to sit in the upper deck of the Meadowlands. There is no passion about the games because there is no connection yet to a broader sense of accomplishment. 10 years in and the MLS' best teams would have a hard time avoiding relegation in the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, or Ligue 1. And they wouldn't vie for the title in Scotland, Portugal, or Belgium either. Even compared to other teams and leagues in this hemisphere (specifically Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina) the MLS' best make a mockery of the beautiful game.

That's not to say that the US doesn't have potential and I'll be the first in line to buy season tickets whenever there's a team worth supporting. I love the fact that Chivas USA fans are so nuts and, in fact, Chicago Fire fans are quite nuts too, but I won't pay to see the Red Bulls play unless it's against Barcelona (which I did go see) or another top club.

Also, one thing that people fail to realize is that the stadiums MLS teams play in are often NFL stadiums with capacities around 80,000 so even if 35,000 show up, the place looks pretty empty. More soccer-specific stadiums are needed and an influx of cash to buy better and better players from Europe who are in their prime (and not washups like Marcus Schopp who the Red Bulls commentators laude as the next coming of Christ merely because he once played in Europe). Americans returning from stints in top European leagues will make a positive impact as well and the more players we send there the better the league will be 5 years down the road.

Lots of issues, few answers, I know. Sorry.

[The NFL only recently became the monolithic power it is today -- the 1980s and 90s brought such unrestrained growth with the advent of cable and satellite providers and, honestly, the Internet that it's hard to compare the MLS with the NFL. Even the NBA is dwarfed by the NFL. I think equating the MLS to the MLB is a better way to go since they operate on a much different lower level than either the NBA or the NFL, who have completely grabbed the pay-to-view market by the horns with deals like NFL Sunday Ticket. ESPN's purchase of Monday Night Football for something in the area of $294million a year is absolutely ridiculous and apparently all the TV money goes to cover player wages, meaning all additional money earned via tickets and merchandising is profit for the teams and the league. The MLS has tried this route, but there is such a small market share that it's harder to cover the wages -- small as they are -- with TV sponsorships. It's therefore a struggle to maintain a team in the black whereas in the NFL you have to want to go into the red.]

[Phew, sorry about all that. Hopefully I didn't write anything sily that I didn't mean to say. Anyone who has any better information on this feel free to add or correct.]

I think MLS suffers from (among many other ills) the unrealistic expectations and standards of a lot of American soccer fans, who are steeped in the Premiership, La Liga and Serie A. This has been a problem from the very beginning: if your definition of what professional football needs to look like is Anfield, then the US domestic game is always going to fall short. MLS is already better-run and -supported than probably 80 percent of the leagues around the world.

Well it is hardly a surprise is it? After all the US fav sporting pastimes are NFL, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey and WWE.

In the UK we have the problem of SOME Premiership clubs not BEING able to satisfy demands... but then again we dont have NFL, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey and the WWE to interfere.